Conscious Parenting - with Robert Saul MD

Rober Saul MD All About the Voice

Robert Saul MD, pediatrician, medical geneticist, educator, administrator and author deeply cares for all children. With over 44 years of medical practice Robert Saul MD has developed a keen awareness about parenting skills: how to raise children to be good citizens and how to improve our communities.

His advocacy for children has led him to write the books for parents that provide a multi-dimensional approach to parenting in a refreshingly new way.

Robert Saul MD is a voice for conscious parenting and radical empathy , and this is his story.

[3:32] Five steps to becoming the best parent you can be
[8:00] Forgiveness and parenting
[11:22] Radical empathy and compassion
[14:12] Conscious parenting
[22:22] Prescription for good citizenship
[25:52] Advocating for children
[27:34] A list of books about children for parents
[29:33] Message to the past self
[32:13] Message from the future self

Learn more about Robert Saul MD
Read Robert Saul MD books

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Victoria Rader [00:00:02] In the world of many internal and external voices, the voice you listen to is their voice that dictates your life. Would you like to discover a clear path to a life of freedom and fulfillment? Then welcome to All About the Voice podcast, where we focus on awareness, alignment and action in order to live a life of abundance. I am your host, Victoria Rader. 

Victoria Rader [00:00:28] I clicked the stop button and finished my interview with Dr. Saul. And then he sent me an article called The Professional Road Less Traveled. And now this is a bit of a longer intro because I simply had to read a few paragraphs. The Professional Road Less Traveled by Robert Soul, M.D., qoute ‘it began in college not knowing what career path to follow. I thought psychology was where I was headed. Things changed dramatically when my first wife and I became foster parents for a child with congenital rubella. Teaching our nine year old foster son with congenital heart disease and impairments of both vision and hearing to be toilet trained was quite the task. We eventually triumphed, but I was quickly thrust into the world. I had no previous concep off several years in several foster children with disabilities. Later, we were no longer foster parents, but my path was set. I needed to go to medical school. In medical school, I was tempted by most every specialty. Yet, my experience as a foster parent for children needing special care was always in the back of my mind and I guess the back of my mind won” end of quote. The back of the mind won the voice has prevailed, and yet another quote to conclude “One might ask what I have learned in my close to 50 years since college and foster parenthood. Being a pediatrician, medical genesist, educator, administrator and author, I could create a long list, but I will choose just a few – trust the intuition of parents, let that guide your evaluation and decision making. Listen intently. That sounds so simple, but so hard to do at times. Leave your biases at the door. Preconceived notions based on supplied information or past experience can change your ability to provide the best care possible. Smile and engage. It’s amazing how comforting a smile can be. Remember how shared humanity? You could just as easily be on the other end of this medical encounter” end of quote. And here he is. Dr. Robert Soul, a voice for conscious parenting and radical empathy. 

Victoria Rader [00:03:03] All right, and here with me is amazing, Dr. Robert Saul. I’m so honored to have you with us here today. Welcome to All Aboard the Voice podcast. 

Robert Saul [00:03:14] Oh, thank you. It’s my pleasure. I’m really looking forward to this. 

Victoria Rader [00:03:18] Now, Dr. Saul, 44 years as a pediatrician, you kind of know a thing or two about kids, but yet you seem to be even more passionate about parenting. Talk to me about this journey of conscious parenting and what it means to you. 

Robert Saul [00:03:32] It’s an interesting journey, and it’s been a personal journey and it’s been a professional journey. I finished my residency in pediatrics back in 1979, so a long time ago, and I was determined to be the best darn doctor you could be. So I got involved and very much ingrained in everything I was doing both pediatrics and genetics. But in the early 1990s, I felt like I wasn’t paying back to my community like I should. And I heard somebody give a talk and had 12 words that have had a profound impact on me ever since said for anything that happens in your community. I am the problem. I am the solution. I am the resource. Now that means what happens in my community is my problem, not their problem. It means I need to be part of the solution. And to do that, I need to devote my resources to it. Now, it took me a while to internalize that message. That was profound at the time. But then I went to the folks in the community should put me in coach. I’m ready. What can I do? I really want to make a difference. And I got very involved in a variety of things. But six years later, two teenagers walked into a high school in Littleton, Colorado massacre. 13 people killed themselves, Columbine, and I was stunned. I don’t know why they such a personal impact on me, but it did. I asked myself the question Could that happen in my community? And the answer was yes. What have I done to make a difference? The answer was not enough. So as I sat down and put pencil to paper and we used to do that back then, I found myself sort of writing what I considered to be the five steps to community improvement. And I’ll get to those in just a minute. But what I did was that took me on this journey. For the next 12 13 years, I wrote over one hundred and sixty op ed articles for the local newspaper about what each of us could do to improve our community. And it was articulating those five steps, and those five steps are one learned to be the best parent you could be. And I chose those words carefully because parenting is a lifelong journey. Parenting is being the best you can be. Not everyone has the same capabilities because of their educational background, because of their socioeconomic situation, because of their psychological situation. There’s lots of things that can affect people’s ability to be the best parent they can be. 

Victoria Rader [00:05:56] And it varies for each one of us, I’m sure, even within the day, within an hour. 

Robert Saul [00:06:00] Absolutely. What I found early in my pediatric practice was that I used to try to tell people what to do. And then I realized, No, my job is to more empower them to be the best that they can be. And sometimes that is just gently peering behind the curtain and seeing what I can do to help them given their circumstances. Second step was getting involved in the community. Third step is staying involved, which I think is different. It’s tough to sustain involvement. The fourth was the most intuitive love for others, but it seems to be so difficult in today’s society where we’re going at each other and the fifth one is the most difficult forgiveness. Mm-Hmm. Again, as I wrote those a series of articles over 12 13 years, I found myself on this introspective journey and I used to let my wife sometimes read the articles before I sent them into the paper, and she would sometimes say, Ooh, I don’t know about this one. This sounds a little preachy to me and said, I don’t think you know how I’m preaching to her. And she said, What do you mean? I said, These are to myself. Yeah. These are action steps for myself. If it resonates at all with anybody else, so be it. That’s great. So all of that accumulated in my first book, which was called My Children’s Children Raising Young Citizens in the age of Columbine because I think what parenting is lost track of is raising our children to be good citizens. 

Victoria Rader [00:07:26] You know, before I go ahead and ask you about what that means actually children’s being as good citizens. I’m looking at these five steps. You know, be the best parent you can be. Get involved, stay involved in community, love one another, love for others and forgiveness. But I think that is the recipe for being the best parent you can be. I look at myself as a mother and you have to get involved. You really have to get involved and you really have to stay involved. You know, you’ve mentioned genetics. My daughter’s now doing her Ph.D. in genetics. So you know, and I still am a mom. You know, I’m still involved. It’s involved and then loving. And I think forgiveness. I remember so clearly when my kids were probably two or three years old, having learned the greatest lesson, which was instead of telling them, tell somebody or sorry model it like I remember coming to my kid, getting their eye level and saying, I shouldn’t have said that mommy was wrong to say that. Will you forgive me? And you know, I have these remarkable adult kids now that have that capacity to say those simple words, will you forgive me because they’re not threatened by it? So that modeling, you know, and I’m sure there are a lot of things I still should ask forgiveness for, but I remember a few that I’ve had an opportunity so fascinating that how that one kind of ties to the other four. And I know you’re talking about the community, but I think it applies to parenting as well. 

Robert Saul [00:08:50] Well, absolutely. And I think forgiveness. You know, like you, we had a great example. I mean, when the four year old whacks the two year old and you say, tell him, you’re sorry, that’s early working on forgiveness. But that should be very different than when a 14 year old twenty four year old, forty four year old sixty four year old does in terms of working on forgiveness. And I love the example for Morrie Schwartz in the Tuesdays with Morrie book where basically I boiled down his talk about forgiveness is one forgive yourself first. I mean, you had to sort of forgive yourself first for what you had done to your child before you could ask for forgiveness or an extended apology. And you have to do it now. But forgiveness is personal. Forgiveness is a journey. But forgiveness is also a communal trait. Communities social groups need to forgive each other for things. And let me give you a quick example. The American Medical Association back in the old days, and I don’t know how long this away would not allow black physicians in their organization. They changed that probably in the civil rights era, and they could have just let that go on and say, Well, you know, those old guys back then did that. But about 15 years ago, they published a We were wrong. Hmm. So they asked for communal forgiveness. And so what that allows you to do is to reset your moral compass. I mean, you can always say it wasn’t me, but it was us. And that’s what we need to accept. So if you take those 12 words again, I’m the problem. I’m the solution. I’m the resource substitute pronouns. We are the problem. We are the solution. We are the resource. And so that personal forgiveness, I think, really spills over into communal forgiveness. And that has a lot to do with citizenship. 

Victoria Rader [00:10:37] Oh, and you know, I think that kind of responsibility and accountability is only possible when you can self forgive yourself. I think a lot of us shun the words, I am the problem, the solution, and I’m the resource because we’re unable to forgive us selves for being the problem. So they seem to be very deeply tied to me that only once you can forgive yourself for being the problem, can you become the solution and the resource? And so what does that have to do with being a good citizen and how do we raise our kids to be good citizens? 

Robert Saul [00:11:10] Well, I mean, good citizens care for each other, good citizens care about each other, good citizens care for each other all and every step that they can. But citizens understand the situation. Try to understand what’s going on in other people. And I recently read a term called I mean, we all want people to be empathic. We need empathy. But in some ways, you need to have radical empathy. And what radical empathy is not just a life that must be really hard, and I’m sorry you’re going through that radical empathy is actually actively trying to learn what they’re going through so you can feel it more and understand it more than just at the abstract. That must be really hard. I’ve never undergone that myself, but that must be really hard. Radical empathy is trying to get a better feel for that. And I think of my medical career has been involved with a lot of that. I mean, because as I’ve seen the trials and tribulations that so many families have had, I mean, I’ve talked to a lot of families where their children are dying or have a genetic disorder or have a severe intellectual disability or severe handicaps. And talking to those families has taught me so much. I’ve learned so much more. I’ve become a better person by actually being a part of their journey than just taking a professional distance from it. 

Victoria Rader [00:12:42] Mm-Hmm. You know, I think what you’re describing so powerfully that radical empathy must be, you know, compassion, because when you first are aware of somebody going through a struggle that sympathy, if what you’re saying, you know, while you’re struggling to bad, I’ve noticed, I’m aware, I’m aware, I see you’re struggling. So you know, that would be at least sympathy, right? As opposed. Complete ignorance, but then empathy is feeling what a person is feeling then when you have radical empathy of truly trying to walk in their shoes, and I think then there is that compassion where you have it as a step love like the big love L-O-V-E, you know, compassion of saying, You know what? I may never understand what you’re going through, but it should not prevent me from loving and supporting and caring for you. And I think that is that, to me, the ultimate step of moving from your sympathy, empathy through radical empathy and into compassion. 

Robert Saul [00:13:36] So there is a tree reading for an article that I wrote recently about the opposite of love and Bishop Michael Curry of the Episcopal Church in the United States here said the opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is selfishness. So what you were talking about that big L is selflessness being able to share their common humanity with our other, with our other folks that we’re dealing with. 

Victoria Rader [00:14:04] And that’s beautiful. So how does one get involved in a community and in just being a conscious parent? 

Robert Saul [00:14:12] So let me jump into the conscious parenting aspect of things sort of how I got to that. Yes, that was an interesting journey. So as I was going through this quest, if you will, not quite understanding what were the detours are going to be along the way. I made a professional change late in my career and went to take over a position as medical director of general pediatrics in a hospital. And they made me take a leadership course and I was, Oh, really? I mean, I’m old enough. I know what I’m doing, but I was much better for it. And one of the simple concepts they talked about was conscious leadership and that basically they talked about a line and I’m really simplifying it. But when you’re above the line, you’re open, you’re receptive, you’re ready to learn. When you’re below the line, you’re closed, you’re defensive. You’re always right. We’re human. We’re going to be above and below the line. We’ve all been in that three o’clock meeting when we’re just sitting there stewing to ourselves, when is this thing going to be over? I am so tired of this meeting, and the whole point of being a conscious leader is just saying, OK, I’m below the line and I can choose to stay below the line, or what can I do to make a difference and move myself? My interaction, my listening skills to be above the line. The same thing holds for parenting and what I call the parental awareness threshold. When you’re above the parental awareness threshold, you’re open, you’re receptive, you’re ready to learn and listen to your children. When you’re below, you’re closed, you’re defensive. Because I said so because I’m the parent. 

Victoria Rader [00:15:42] Why do we get that way? Why do parents get that way? 

Robert Saul [00:15:47] Oh golly, gee, that’s a toughie. I’m not sure. I think a lot of that is the culture we live in and in which I mean, I don’t think there’s a map for parenting. I don’t think it’s an innate skill. I think it’s a taught skill. But a lot of it is taught because of what our parents told us, because I said so. And there are certain things because I said so make sense because I said so should be framed in the right context, should be framed in the right loving context. For example, in terms of discipline, you know, the root word for discipline is disciple, which means to teach so discipline shouldn’t be punishment. Discipline should be teaching. You know, unless, of course, your child runs out of your arms and runs into the street, then you’re going to have to take drastic action. But I’m not talking about life threatening things. I’m talking about most of the things that parents deal with, that we should be taking that step back and pause, assess and choose what our next course of action is. That’s what conscious parenting is all about pausing, assessing and choosing. But it can be at several stages. It can be in the moment that child just did something I really like. You said her mommy overreacted. And you might have done something that really irritated, might have something that you thought was very bad or might have been just your mood of the day. Taking that, just pausing, assessing and choosing. And you can do it in the moment if you make it, if you goof up and don’t do it in the moment and hopefully you’ll do it in retrospect. And whether that’s with by yourself or with the truth or trust counselor or your spouse, your sister, your pastor, a good friend, whatever somebody who can help you through this journey because it should not be a solo journey. Mm-Hmm. You know, some folks have asked you, what if it’s a single parent? Well, hopefully there still are some folks that can be some loving, trusted relationship for them to help share with, but it’s difficult. 

Victoria Rader [00:17:47] Hmm. So the question that naturally comes to me because in my life, you know, I’m surrounded by it and client work, and in my own life, I know that there we tend to kind of swing between extremes. Are you at least you often see parents kind of embody those extremes off do, as I say, strict obedience. This has got to be done and then on the other side, it’s kind of full enabling, you know, well, do whatever you will, you’ll figure it out, which so how does one find that balance and how do you honestly assess yourself as a parent to see where you are? 

Robert Saul [00:18:24] Well, I think again, the whole parenting journey is an evolution is a conscious awareness of where you are. You have to sort of try to understand, be ready to learn and alter your responses accordingly. And again, the parenting journey to me is the citizenship journey. So you need to be a good citizen yourself, but then emphasize to your child that what I’m trying to raise you to be is a good citizen. And let me give you a very personal example. When I was young, my parents divorced and unfortunately my first marriage ended up in divorce. So my mother used to tell me, Bob, I want you to do is be happy. And I think that’s parental guilt. You know, you feel badly that the marriage ended up in divorce, so you want your best for your kids. I remember telling my oldest son, I want you to do is be happy. And then as I was on this journey the last almost 30 years when I realized what I really want them to be as good citizens and happiness to me as a secondary effect. Fortunately for my mother, my mother was that example. I mean, I could have gone off and done all what I wanted to do and just chased whatever I wanted to chase. But she set the example. She set the tone. She was that positive example. And you know, this can be if you’re a person of deep faith or not of deep faith. I mean, to me, you know, there certainly are people that are not of deep faith that are very true to this model. I think of being conscious and aware and trying to help others. 

Victoria Rader [00:20:01] Hmm. So, you know, it’s fascinating to me that you’re bringing this up because I’m kind of a believer that the joy and happiness are not necessarily the same thing. And, you know, the deep inner joy is focusing on what matters no matter what, and happiness can be fleeting. Now there is the fact of, you know, happy as a long outcome when you’re focusing on really that deep, deep, deep joy of being a human being in its best and highest description, you know, which to me, is the spirit that is trying to fulfill its mission here on Earth as a human being, that’s kind of my definition of a human being. But how do you see because, you know, I don’t want my listeners to be sitting there and saying, Oh, wait a minute. So now I’m all confused, you don’t want need my kids to be happy. That’s not what you’re saying. 

Robert Saul [00:20:52] No. Well, I guess I would probably put that my happiness equals your inner joy. I mean, you know, obviously, you know, you’re happy when you get that Christmas gift you wanted or that Hanukkah gift you wanted your child’s happy when they got their first bike. But those are the fleeting moments of happiness. I’m talking about the you know what really makes a difference in terms of our humanity, in terms of helping each other and realizing that that’s what gives me the inner strength. That’s what makes a difference going forward. It’s interesting that you ask that because I’m sort of working on another project right now, sort of what really matters? Mm-Hmm. And to me, it’s truth, trust, science, civility, diversity and faith that would take a while to digest. But there are so many things that go into what really matters. And, you know, sometimes it’s semantics. I mean, my happiness equals your inner joy. So I don’t want people to come away with, what if I just do this? I’ll be happy. Well, I think you have to. You work at it. You work at being a good citizen. You work at caring for each other. You work at caring about each other and caring for each other. Then you, you will find that happiness. But at times it doesn’t blossom. I mean, it doesn’t. It’s not like looking at a flower. Sometimes, sometimes it just hit you. Whoa. That’s what this is all about. At least that’s been my experience. 

Victoria Rader [00:22:21] Oh, that’s just beautiful. So I guess looking at that conscious parenting as a parenting from a point of view of being a good citizen yourself and modeling a good citizenship to your children and expecting them to rise to being good citizens. If you were to give us the prescription as a doctor for good citizenship, what would that be? Give me a day a prescription of a good citizen. 

Robert Saul [00:22:47] I can’t put it on one script, but in the book I talk about sort of the basics and then I talk about the traits, the basics, or when I previously mentioned accepting instruction again. Parenting, I don’t think is innate, especially in today’s complex. Technological society, you’re bombarded by so many things you need to, you know, go to trusted sources and your pediatrician, your family practice physician and people that you can trust. You need to be actively engaged, then you need to be continually involved. Sort of those are the basics. Then it gets down to what I consider as a parenting traits and citizenship traits, and these are separable. But for parenting, you need to have patience and perseverance. You need to have optimism. You need to have the ability to change. You need to have the ability to not change when you shouldn’t change. 

Victoria Rader [00:23:41] Oh, I love that. And the wisdom and discernment of knowing the difference between the two. 

Robert Saul [00:23:46] Absolutely. You need to have sustained involvement. You need to be able to engage in rational discourse and then rational discourse has to do with forgiveness. And then you need to have empathy, humility, sincerity. You need to be willing to be vulnerable. You need to have love for others and forgiveness. I think vulnerability is undervalued because you’re vulnerable, then people will take advantage of you. And yes, I understand that. But you know, the current of political discourse in our country, which has led to us being so much at each other’s throats has to do with, I don’t want to be vulnerable. If you’re willing to invest in other people with love and forgiveness, you have to be vulnerable. You have to be willing to say you’re sorry. You have to be willing to accept what you’ve done is wrong. That’s personally and so. And you gave me that parenting example one night. I think my child was seven or eight. He did something that I thought was really wrong or bad, and I yelled at him and he melted. My wife got mad at me for yelling. And yet then we went into that typical family meltdown mode where nobody talks and just walked past each other in the house for an hour. I’m sure your family has never been that for my never know. And so when it was time for bed, I laid down with him, said, Son, I’m so sorry, I think you did something was wrong and said what it was, but Dan’s response was totally wrong. Totally inappropriate. And I want to apologize, and I want to know how sorry I am and I want you to know we’re in. He said, Dad, would you be quiet? Why? He said, I hate it when you’re nice. 

Victoria Rader [00:25:31] Oh, I love that. 

Robert Saul [00:25:34] So, you know, I don’t say that to pat myself on the back, but I say that to think that actually, I’ve been using this conscious parenting model in some way shape or for a period of time. It’s just that it sort of crystallized in my head over the last decade or so. 

Victoria Rader [00:25:49] What keeps you so passionate on this topic? 

Robert Saul [00:25:52] Well, I mean, at the end of my career, I worked in a clinic that had the highest Medicaid population in the state of South Carolina. Mm-Hmm. And so, so many of those children are disadvantaged and need and need help. And seeing how our society, in my view, has let them down. So I’m going to do my darndest to keep to try to advocate on their behalf. And then the very end of my clinical career, I got involved in taking care of children that had profound intellectual handicaps or needed had to have a tracheostomy tube for breathing or a feeding tube. Severe disabilities. And seeing the resilience of those families and seeing how much I learned from them, I can’t stop. I mean, I’ve retired clinically did that a year ago, but I will never withdraw from this work because this is what defines me until they put me under. This is what I’m going to do. 

Victoria Rader [00:26:52] That’s powerful. And where would the listeners find your books now? We’ll be listing your website. And so if you wanted to talk a little bit about where to find them, how to support you on your magnificent journey, since now we are the problem and where the solution and we are the resource. So we’ve got to do something here. Tell us how we can help you best. 

Robert Saul [00:27:12] Well, my website is my children’s children dot com, and I chose my children’s children purposely for my children’s children, my grandchildren, my children’s children, the children I’ve cared for and my children’s children, the children I’ve advocated on behalf for. So that’s at my website. There is a blog where I post things, usually every one to two weeks. And there’s also a list of books of my first book, which is my children’s children raising young citizens in the age of Columbine. There is actually an accompanying children’s illustrated children’s book, too that called All About Children. There is a more scientific book that I coauthored with somebody and then conscious parenting using the parental awareness threshold, and all of the links for those are on the website 

Victoria Rader [00:28:01] And in your book that you’ve co-authored, though, I think what I love about that is that those of us that are into science, there is such a huge portion of that book explaining how the children’s brains are formed and work. And and it is so helpful, I think, for parents to understand how early these patterns are formed and how to work with them. 

Robert Saul [00:28:22] Oh, absolutely, because one of the first part of the book talks about early brain in child development, the science behind that and how we can use that positively to make a difference in terms of our children. And so the back half of the book is sort of and we try to make the book not too scientific so people can take away something. But the back half of the book is sort of a. So what now? What’s it mean for children? What’s it mean for parents? What’s it mean for policymakers? What’s it mean for doctors? What’s it mean for our society so we could translate some of that science into actual action going forward? 

Victoria Rader [00:28:57] Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, I know that, you know, I’ve taken two of the biggest gold nuggets from this is that it’s never too late to be a great parent starting now, no matter how old your kids are 4, 40 or 80. If you still are alive and being a father or mother to an eighty year old, it’s never too late to be a great parent. It’s never too late to say you’re sorry. It’s never too late to seek forgiveness and involvement, and so that’s just beautiful gift. Now, at the end of the podcast, I kind of go take, I guess, two three questions, and so I will guide you through those questions, which have become the All About the Voices family’s favorite questions. So, Dr. Saul, going back to any time in your life where you need encouragement the most. So kind of think of your life, when is the moment in your life that you feel you need encouragement the most and you could just describe it to the degree you’re comfortable describing and more importantly, with all the wisdom that you’ve gained. What would you tell that young child or man at that moment? 

Robert Saul [00:30:02] Probably the toughest time was in the middle of my professional journey. There was a real downturn, and I won’t go into any specifics, but it really threw me for a loop. And the question is, what did I do? How did I get rid of some of the bitterness that was associated with that? And how did I go forward because I felt like I was stuck in a certain place and a certain time. And how did I turn that around? Fortunately for me, I was listening to what was happening in my life because I was in the middle of this introspective journey. And so these articles that I started writing started making sense to me. They weren’t just abstract. They were really talking to myself. And in some ways it was sort of a journal. But being able to write down these thoughts and make them so personal for myself is what got me to where I could start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. And it was the love of the others around me that got me through that. 

Victoria Rader [00:31:07] Mm hmm. And so looking at that journey now, what would you tell yourself from your perspective today? 

Robert Saul [00:31:15] Always listen. Always look for things that you would not anticipate some of the greatest things I hear, or when I’m listening to children’s songs, when I’m watching Disney movies, when I’m watching things that I would never expect. There are so many images of my faith that are out there that I never would have expected that speak to me. Hmm. I mean, at Christmas time, I get all choked up with Publix commercials. You know, Publix is one of the grocery stores down here. And those commercials tell me, How are you doing that, Bob? No, you’re not. You need to pay attention to what’s going on around you. 

Victoria Rader [00:31:56] Wow. So you allow yourself to hear God’s whispering in everything and everyone. That’s gorgeous. Absolutely. That’s gorgeous. Now taking you forward, and we’re going to just visualize that my children’s children is the global movement that it should be. And so we’re 20 years from now, and Bob from 20 years from now, comes over, sits right by you. And what does he have to tell you? 

Robert Saul [00:32:24] Getting involved in your community? You might think you’re involved in your community, but there’s always something you can do better. That is, as I said, life is a journey of learning. Life is a journey of continuous improvement. I mean, as I said, I got involved in 1993 with I’m the problem. I’m the solution in the research. And I get I think in retrospect, I was somewhat smugly proud of myself for what I was doing. And then Columbine gave me my comeuppance. 

Victoria Rader [00:32:53] Wow. So profound. Well, thank you. And now for the grand finale. 

Robert Saul [00:32:59] Oh, I’m ready. 

Victoria Rader [00:33:02] You’ve given us so much gold, you know, I know I will be listening to this episode a few times to allow for it to settle deeper and deeper and teach me and reach me in deeper levels. But if there was one thing and it might be the same, I’m the problem, but it might be something else. But if there’s just one thing that you want our all about the voice to remember you by one teaching one story, one saying whatever comes to your heart, to your mind at this point. 

Robert Saul [00:33:32] Learning and practicing forgiveness in earnest. Because I think that’s really where our humanity is. 

Victoria Rader [00:33:40] Profound. Well, thank you so very much for coming on and for sharing with us and for setting pretty high. Pier one was it the parenting consciousness awareness threshold? So you set a citizenship awareness threshold for all of us? Thank you for your time. 

Robert Saul [00:33:55] Oh, thank you. It’s been a pleasure.